The Star spoke to Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale about what steps he has taken after a Federal Court justice ruled CSIS’s metadata program was illegal:
CSIS cannot discern, apparently, how many Canadians were scooped up in this unlawful metadata program. What’s your reaction to that? Do you accept that they cannot isolate how many Canadians were affected by this?
Well, as you know, we’ve completely accepted the decision of the Federal Court. And that’s why we didn’t appeal it, and that’s why I’ve asked the (Security Intelligence Review Committee, or SIRC) to oversee the fencing off and the control of the associated data. And I will certainly be interested in SIRC’s assessment of the situation.
Based on that, I think we’ll be able to see a way forward to properly deal with the situation and totally respond to the instructions of the court. But at the moment, SIRC is in charge of the material, and I’m waiting for their further advice.
I am assured that CSIS is co-operating fully with SIRC, which of course is critical to ensure compliance with the court.
Read more:Goodale orders review into illegal CSIS metadata program
The director of CSIS, Michel Coulombe, is on the record saying the program is effective, efficient, it’s valuable, and if it was up with him he’d keep it going. Where do you come down on that? It’s suspended for now, but is this something that Canadians might expect to see again in the future?
Well, I’ll wait to hear the opinion of SIRC before we move along. This is a complex subject matter, and it’s one that obviously cause the Federal Court considerable anxiety. And I take the Federal Court’s adjudication on this matter very seriously.
They felt strongly enough about it to deliver an en banc opinion in very strong language. So all of that has to be very carefully weighed and understood. And at this stage, that process of consideration is still ongoing.
We are, as well, with the Department of Justice, reviewing the long process that led up to the court’s findings. And any further comment about the fallout or the way forward will depend on that future consideration by both me and the minister of justice.
The Star: That’s news to me. I didn’t know that review was happening.
The work that CSIS did was all based upon the considered legal opinions that they had from the Department of Justice. So it is important to make sure that, from the operational side, which is Public Safety, but also the policy side, which is (the Department of) Justice, that we get this right. So both Minister Wilson-Raybould and I are treating this with great seriousness.
The other interesting thing is CSIS has a record of when they briefed your predecessors about the ODAC. Now, they’re careful to say they didn’t brief the ministers on the particulars of this program, when it comes to “threat” and “non-threat” data collection, but does that concern you? I mean, CSIS and the Department of Justice here seem to take a very liberal interpretation of the CSIS Act, and for years did not disclose that interpretation to the ultimate watchdog. I mean, you ultimately are responsible for the actions of CSIS. So does that concern you, and has that changed your interaction with the agency when it comes to demanding specific information when they brief you on operations?
Well, I always try to be as demanding and meticulous as the circumstances require. And I expect very high standards from the service, and I believe they expect that of themselves.
Their advice to me was that, in good faith, they understood that they were operating within the law. And that was based on their view of the opinions that they had from the Department of Justice.
Sorry minister, but is that enough at this point? Some critics have said that this amounts to “secret laws.” If CSIS or the RCMP for that matter can consult with justice about the interpretation of their act, and act for a decade without seeking approval or even notifying their political masters, is that enough in terms of oversight?
As I’ve said, in terms of the immediate management of the situation following the court’s judgment, the watchdog agency, SIRC, has been put in that supervisory role. And secondly, the Department of Justice and my own department are carefully examining all the processes that led up to the court’s findings. And when we have conclusions to draw from that process, we’ll have something further to say about this matter.
But the point is clear. We take that Federal Court judgment very seriously, and that is clearly evidenced by our immediate decision not to appeal it.
And what’s the scope of that review? Are you looking into who authorized this, because that’s one of the big questions that remain on this file. CSIS says they don’t have information on the genesis of this program. Is that part of your review?
The whole set of circumstances that led to the court’s findings will be carefully looked at by both myself and by the minister of justice.
And you’re committing to release the results of that review publicly?
When we’ve completed it, we’ll have something further to say. This is already a matter of important public record, and I try in these matters to be as transparent as I possibly can.
This interview has been edited for style and clarity.
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